tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-497787815177352569.post4351805425445934025..comments2024-01-03T08:55:04.827-05:00Comments on SQL Anywhere: Web 2.0 Meets Database 101Breck Carterhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15975598564711761434noreply@blogger.comBlogger31125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-497787815177352569.post-51668399065293335032009-02-17T22:07:00.000-05:002009-02-17T22:07:00.000-05:00As a non-magnolia user, your post seems overly cri...As a non-magnolia user, your post seems overly critical, though obviously the points you make are perfectly valid. Maybe it seems to me that way because I just watched the following video, and the guy seemed pretty alright, and had simply been clueless about how to properly backup his database (which is his fault of course, but I still think he's alright): <BR/><BR/>http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2009/02/16/what-really-happened-at-magnolia-and-lessons-learned/Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-497787815177352569.post-22201242604570352582009-02-14T16:55:00.000-05:002009-02-14T16:55:00.000-05:00Posted on Ma.gnolia.com: Update (Friday, February ...Posted on <A HREF="http://ma.gnolia.com" REL="nofollow">Ma.gnolia.com</A>: Update (Friday, February 13, 2009, 7:00 PM PST): The data recovery folks let me know that they're still work, but I should hear more from them by Tuesday.Breck Carterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15975598564711761434noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-497787815177352569.post-13804512376271648752009-02-13T10:44:00.000-05:002009-02-13T10:44:00.000-05:00Oops, I should have linked to the original article...Oops, I should have linked to the original article here: <A HREF="http://www.beskerming.com/commentary/2009/02/13/423/Backup_Policies_Can_Really_Save_Businesses" REL="nofollow">Backup Policies Can Really Save Businesses</A>.<BR/><BR/>At the bottom of *that* page is a particularly poignant link: "Social bookmark this page" :)Breck Carterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15975598564711761434noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-497787815177352569.post-38781722092046112072009-02-13T10:36:00.000-05:002009-02-13T10:36:00.000-05:00Another week has passed... and for another view of...Another week has passed... and for another view of the situation see <A HREF="http://www.secuobs.com/revue/news/61600.shtml" REL="nofollow">Backup Policies Can Really Save Businesses</A>.Breck Carterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15975598564711761434noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-497787815177352569.post-7332700455374821042009-02-08T04:14:00.000-05:002009-02-08T04:14:00.000-05:00It's been over a week since Ma.gnolia disappeared,...It's been over a week since Ma.gnolia disappeared, and the "who cares?" moment is fast approaching... if it isn't already in the past.<BR/><BR/>"Thanks to Larry's recommendation of Diigo, I've started using it and wish that I'd found it earlier. ... I don't have any reason to care whether Magnolia lives or dies any more beyond recovering my bookmarks that disappeared with Magnolia." <A HREF="http://getsatisfaction.com/magnolia/topics/bookmark_recovery_tips?utm_content=reply_link&utm_medium=email&utm_source=reply_notification#reply_787628" REL="nofollow">GetSatisfaction</A>Breck Carterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15975598564711761434noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-497787815177352569.post-86094001093858892342009-02-06T08:46:00.000-05:002009-02-06T08:46:00.000-05:00One thing that always bothers me about these discu...One thing that always bothers me about these discussions, the word "backup".<BR/><BR/>I think the term pollutes our thinking. Any time I have been tasked to write a backup plan I politely tell folks I don't write backup plans, I write restoration plans. Without restoration backup is irrelevant. I have seen many "backup" plans that dutifully capture all the data while having a restoration process that requires vast amounts of labor and time. How many times have we seen requirements that say backup must happen every day, we can't lose more than X hours of data, but are totally silent on any SLA around restore. I write restoration plans.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-497787815177352569.post-59848470993399787992009-02-06T02:30:00.001-05:002009-02-06T02:30:00.001-05:00One might ask, "Why is Breck so interested in pick...One might ask, "Why is Breck so interested in picking at the entrails of Ma.gnolia?" Because I was originally trained as an Engineer, as in the professional (bridge building etc) sense of the word. Engineers study engineering mistakes, that's part of what they do. Think NTSB, they do the same thing with airplane incidents, and believe me, NTSB reports have a *wide* following. The study of mistakes is one of the reasons airplanes and bridges are so safe today. Mistakes continue to be made, so the study must continue; think I35W in Minneapolis. <BR/><BR/>On a more personal note, Larry says he is "currently working with a data recovery company in hopes that they can recover a working version of the database". I have been there, done that, spent the enormous sums required to get prompt service, and (re-)learned a valuable lesson. Personally, I have a hard time reading The Tao Of Backup because it creeps me out; not the cheesy Tao thing but the examples that are so real, so very possible. So I wish Larry well, and hope that someday he will share the details, but I will understand if he does not.Breck Carterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15975598564711761434noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-497787815177352569.post-89773712338017832262009-02-06T02:30:00.000-05:002009-02-06T02:30:00.000-05:00What we do know now, is that the data store was 50...What we do know now, is that the data store was 500GB. That's a reason a database *should* be used, that a backup strategy *should* be carefully considered, not the other way around. Surely, somewhere in Cloud City, Larry could have found someone to advise him. (But wait, that's pure speculation, we really don't know the details).<BR/><BR/>What I can say with certainty is that "500GB" makes the Ma.gnolia 2 Charter ( http://ma.gnolia.org/docs/M2_Charter.pdf ) even MORE amazing: it mentions Ruby on Rails but not any of these terms:<BR/><BR/> * database<BR/> * datastore<BR/> * file<BR/> * backup<BR/> * recovery<BR/> * restore<BR/> * integrity<BR/> * availability<BR/> * strategy<BR/> * infrastructure<BR/><BR/>- continued -Breck Carterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15975598564711761434noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-497787815177352569.post-68064495918139446522009-02-06T02:29:00.000-05:002009-02-06T02:29:00.000-05:00Anonymous asks what I think about "When Larry star...Anonymous asks what I think about "When Larry started Ma.gnolia, backing up might have been a simple mysqldump at midnight to another server in the colo."<BR/><BR/>My article was aimed more at system developers who, for many different reasons, might be risking the same disaster that has befallen Ma.gnolia. There are two big points here, "backup" being the one getting all the attention.<BR/><BR/>The other question is "Did Ma.gnolia use a database at all?" As far as I am concerned certain configurations of MySQL do not qualify as databases at all in the enterprise sense of the word... and 500GB makes Ma.gnolia's data store larger than the vast majority of enterprise data stores (for every eBay there are 1,000 "ordinary" enterprises).<BR/><BR/>Other people have suggested to me that Ma.gnolia may have used SimpleDB on Amazon EC2 due to "the simplicity of their application". Now, those "other people" are folks I respect tremendously, BUT just because a user interface appears to be simple does not mean the underlying data store is simple as well. <BR/><BR/>So, in spite of me slagging Ma.gnolia in the article, I cannot say "this is exactly what they did wrong", only that "they did something wrong". Police have stopped using the term "accident" to describe automobile collisions because when two cars smack into each other it's (almost) always someone's fault. From what little we know about Ma.gnolia situation, the disaster was the direct result of decisions made (or not made) by those responsible (ok, by Larry).<BR/><BR/>- continued -Breck Carterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15975598564711761434noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-497787815177352569.post-65481675603984424502009-02-05T21:45:00.000-05:002009-02-05T21:45:00.000-05:00Well, I for one did not know that this site was ru...Well, I for one did not know that this site was run completely by some guy in his mom's garage. So even if it comes back (which I doubt), I won't be using it any longer.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-497787815177352569.post-37818280675170848072009-02-05T20:31:00.000-05:002009-02-05T20:31:00.000-05:00Larry just posted some info on the situation... As...Larry just posted some info on the situation... <BR/><BR/>As I expected....apparently they have 500GB's to back up. Its not trivial to backup that kind of data on a live system - sure experienced sys admins probably know how to do that, but for a two man team, the amount of data probably got ahead of them.<BR/><BR/>http://getsatisfaction.com/magnolia/topics/ma_gnolia_data_recovery_statusAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-497787815177352569.post-18735829950556361412009-02-05T17:44:00.000-05:002009-02-05T17:44:00.000-05:00I might be able to see how this could happen. When...I might be able to see how this could happen. When Larry started Ma.gnolia, backing up might have been a simple mysqldump at midnight to another server in the colo.<BR/><BR/>When traffic and data increased, the dump might have taken longer and longer until which the mysqldump no longer made sense but the "next step" up might have been cost prohibitive... so they started to use hacks to work around their problem and it so happened the hacks failed.<BR/><BR/>Breck, what do you think?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-497787815177352569.post-82718333319036517942009-02-05T17:33:00.000-05:002009-02-05T17:33:00.000-05:00I'm a one person team re:backups and everything is...I'm a one person team re:backups and everything is backed up overnight every day! and, the backups are tested regularly to be sure we can get them back.<BR/><BR/>And this is not on a machine in the same locale (or, heaven forbid, backup A to B, B to A, C to D, D to C, though even that would have been better than what we're seeing from gnolia)<BR/><BR/>Not bright at all (what does this say about cloud computing, btw?)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-497787815177352569.post-36330053157860505852009-02-05T17:24:00.000-05:002009-02-05T17:24:00.000-05:00The Ma.gnolia team is quite small. Mostly two guys...The Ma.gnolia team is quite small. Mostly two guys who have had various bits of help along the way.sabrhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06333681447565984718noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-497787815177352569.post-27789952872222094642009-02-05T17:18:00.000-05:002009-02-05T17:18:00.000-05:00oooh ok I just saw Todd's comment. NVMoooh ok I just saw Todd's comment. NVMAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-497787815177352569.post-27376141614994865282009-02-05T17:17:00.000-05:002009-02-05T17:17:00.000-05:00Breck where did you pick up on that? I recall hear...Breck where did you pick up on that? I recall hearing somewhere that Gnolia systems had a bigger team than that.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-497787815177352569.post-85503546302790024842009-02-05T17:03:00.000-05:002009-02-05T17:03:00.000-05:00Correction: Apparently it's a one-person operation...Correction: Apparently it's a one-person operation.Breck Carterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15975598564711761434noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-497787815177352569.post-64552231393884258822009-02-05T16:27:00.000-05:002009-02-05T16:27:00.000-05:00Sooooo... it looks like Ma.gnolia is a two-person ...Sooooo... it looks like Ma.gnolia is a two-person operation, has never been more than 4 people. That's interesting, but irrelevant when it comes to backup IMO.<BR/><BR/>http://getsatisfaction.com/magnolia/topics/bookmark_recovery_tipsBreck Carterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15975598564711761434noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-497787815177352569.post-42112782278692653692009-02-05T15:46:00.000-05:002009-02-05T15:46:00.000-05:00Anonymous: Yes, it should be said but it wasn't. I...Anonymous: Yes, it should be said but it wasn't. I did mention "mirroring" in passing and shouldn't have done that without your exhortation. One might quibble that it isn't necessary in a "Database 101" article but that isn't true today: with cheap computers and cheap disk drives and cheap networks, high availability / mirroring / live replication is really affordable (and really really easy with SQL Anywhere, but that's neither here nor there)... and so many organizations DO rely on it for backup purposes. It is sooooo tempting.<BR/><BR/>Also missing is "validate the backup"... no quibbling there, that SHOULD be mentioned even in a Database 101 article. I use the "Not Enough Coffee" defense :)<BR/><BR/>The next article (The Tao Of Backup) does provide a pointer to a *thorough* discussion.Breck Carterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15975598564711761434noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-497787815177352569.post-37486071701338838252009-02-05T15:37:00.000-05:002009-02-05T15:37:00.000-05:00Correction Replace "backup that can be corrupted r...Correction <BR/><BR/>Replace "backup that can be corrupted real time"<BR/>with "backup that cannot be corrupted real time"Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-497787815177352569.post-21289826668849666712009-02-05T15:34:00.000-05:002009-02-05T15:34:00.000-05:00OK, one thing that doesn't seem to be said here. ...OK, one thing that doesn't seem to be said here. Don't rely on live replication as a backup mechanism. Live replication of a corrupted database gives you.... two corrupted databases. Alway have some OFFLINE backup that can be corrupted real time.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-497787815177352569.post-50601418676396638772009-02-05T02:00:00.000-05:002009-02-05T02:00:00.000-05:00Shirley: I am sure SharePoint is a fine product bu...Shirley: I am sure SharePoint is a fine product but this article is about backups, database backups in particular, and that's not what SharePoint is all about... nor, apparently, is that what nSynergy is about. E.g., this Google search yields no hits:<BR/><BR/> database backup site:nsynergy.com<BR/><BR/>To be specific, SharePoint is something that *needs to be backed up*, not something that helps you *do a backup*:<BR/><BR/>http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library/cc262412.aspxBreck Carterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15975598564711761434noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-497787815177352569.post-47169894249672506792009-02-04T23:06:00.000-05:002009-02-04T23:06:00.000-05:00Greeting.I think Microsoft Office SharePoint Serve...Greeting.<BR/><BR/>I think Microsoft Office SharePoint Server 2007 is something you definitely want to look at. We specialise in this. <BR/><BR/>There is more information on this at http://www.nsynergy.com or please mail to info@nsynergy.com.Shirleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07289527999332756248noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-497787815177352569.post-3010080517593624802009-02-03T16:23:00.000-05:002009-02-03T16:23:00.000-05:00Wired is excited about Ma.gnolia's clever approach...Wired is excited about Ma.gnolia's clever approach to getting users to recover their own data from the cloud.<BR/><BR/>http://blog.wired.com/business/2009/02/magnolia-using.html<BR/><BR/>I guess we're all Thermians.<BR/><BR/>http://us.imdb.com/character/ch0008369/Breck Carterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15975598564711761434noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-497787815177352569.post-68135234063910882542009-02-03T11:02:00.000-05:002009-02-03T11:02:00.000-05:00philipp: See http://twitter.com/magnolia/They just...philipp: See http://twitter.com/magnolia/<BR/><BR/>They just posted this a few minutes ago: "Still working on data store. In meantime, FriendFeed recovery is available here: http://tr.im/ed0u"<BR/><BR/>IMO twitter is fine but they REALLY need to put that on their (still absent) home page... they can host a single-page website anywhere in the world :)Breck Carterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15975598564711761434noreply@blogger.com